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Re: yet more questions...

Posted By: BB <nettech@bellatlantic.net>
Date: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 1:37 a.m.

In Response To: yet more questions... (Dave Guest)

>The article mentions 3 species in the Sinibotia subgenus but you don't mention which 3 species they are.

Neither does the article :) I did visit the database where I remembered reading the authors name and even there the sinibotia are not identified. If you are really really really curious here is a reffrence as of 92 "Yang, Y. and Y. R. Chen. Revision of the subgenus Botia (Sinibotia) with description of a new species (Cypriniformes: Cobitidae) Ichthyological Explorations of Freshwaters 2:341-349" I am sure it has been revised since then though. In the LOL species archive see b. longiventralis (remember them ;) and reversa. This is what I was eluding to at the end of the quote on barbel counts.

>It says Sinibotia can all be found in the Upper Mekong and Upper Yangtze drainages and Kottelat's article states nigrolineata can be found at Upper Xe Bangfai, Mekong basin in Laos. Are these the same place?

Ahhh, someday I will pop on over to see James and then we can go for a tour http://www.laurustravel.bc.ca/yr.htm I think I see what you getting at :) No they are not the same to tbomk. I will not digress too much here but some brief info on the Yangtze; about 3400 miles in length (longest river in China), begings in the Kunlun Mountains (elevaton 16000 ft.) and makes its way South and then northwest to the East China Sea above Shanghai. Somewhere in the middle are the Yangtze Gorges.... but the loaches seem to be mostly south and west of there. The Upper I think simply reffers to the Kinsha "Golden Sand". It is funny after a fashion but depending on what part of the river you are talking about you get a different name. To further complicate things there are two ways to spell everything... pinion/republic? Siam, Xi'am ect... The Mekong (elevation 1100 ft) is another smaller river (2600 miles) but I think it originates in Tibet and empties into the South China Sea. Border between Burma and Laos, and Laos and Vietnam. These two I have commited to memory 33 galon long plus one, 15 gallon high plus one and 25 gallon plus one, 10 gallon plus one. That is how I remember the numbers :) The Xi Bangafi I am unsure of? The long way to say not the same place.

>If they are does that mean nigrolineata falls in the Sinbotia subgenus? Could be but I doubt it.

>How about this for a thought: When was nigrolineata discovered (I mean while it was still being mistaken for sidthimunki)? How long before 1987 in other words. If sidthimunki has 3 pairs of barbels and nigrolineata (maybe) has 4 pairs, how long did it take for an icthyologist to notice this and declare the nigrolineata as a separate species?

Point taken. Highly unlikely that this would have gone unobserved. You would think it would be fairly obvious to someone collecting nigrolineata for the first time. Oh my gosh a jumbo 'sid'! Not.. Makes me even more curious :0

>The three pictures on JD's site. I haven't read the actual article but nowhere in the accompanying text does it say that they are three pictures of the SAME fish. All it says is "this a 49.1mm specimen and this is a 71.1mm specimen etc". Does the article itself clear this up? I view all those fish as being rather blunt-nosed in appearance but the middle photograph shows a fish with pointed finnage wheras the other two show fish with rounder fins. Also look at the length of the pectorals on the middle fish in comparison to the other two. They're a lot longer relative to the other fins which are all in proportion across all three pictures. I therefore propose that perhaps they're not the same fish and there may be a little sexual dimorphism evident. Also look at the position of the vertical bars relative to the placement of the dorsal fin in those two fish.

No they are all not the same fish. I did not mean to insinuate they were. Do you belive Kottelat has missidentified any of those fish? Finnage is how we identify soo many other species sex so why not nigrolineata, ehh :) Good thought. Martin has mentioned his observations something to this affect in other species and I have noted differences in some Shistura loaches of the same species. I think one of the atlas even go into a comparison of the caudal fin of 'clowns' as a method of determinig sex.

>The pictures at LOL. The pictures taken by Ken show fish that have pointed faces and in some cases more angular finnage. The really interesting thing though is that the largest specimens in the pictures still have their vertical barring whereas the smaller fish are barless. (That's bar Iris, not bra :) So if sids lose their bars as they grow shouldn't the largest fish be the barless ones??? Also, they have 9 or 10 bars which (although we've sort of agreed that this is purely speculation) is too many to make them sidthimunki. On a side note; what the heck is that lower caudal extenditure on Ken's striata pic???

So does this sum it up you thinking; if the loach grows more then 2 inches it is a sidthimunki, if a more steep head is observed and/or less rounded fins are observed you are dealing with nigrolineata, finage might vary due to sex in nigrolineata, if the bars exceed 9 (to be safe) it can not be a 'sid', 'sids' do not loose their pattern, 'sids' and nigrolineata have the same barbel count. I agree on all except on the potentail size and maybe the barbel count. I supose I am just making trouble for myself trying to fit my specimens into a mold they will not fit.

I just had a flashback to the Duce Biggelow movie and I think I speak for all the guys when I say; "Oh yeah, some sea snails" "No, the ones on the bottom please." You do what you want Iris nobody will stop you ;P

>OK, I'm still dubious about sids growing past 2" despite all the stories. How about those breeders that Hans mentioned in his book? They must have been adults so if you're reading Hans, please let us know if the author stated the size.

Seems like the safest route to go. Especialy with Anne's observation so far, Joe's past experience vs. what he is experiencing now, Steve's note above.... It adds up.

>I think we're probably talking about several subspecies here. Maybe the two main species (sid and nig) have been crossed...



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